E262: Celebrating Women in Ecommerce

It might be July, but this month, we’re highlighting the talented ladies among our midst. 

I first got the idea for doing this after noticing that there wasn’t a single female attendee at our last live event in Hong Kong. It got me thinking about how there ought to be a lot more women in ecommerce but it remains to be a male-dominated industry.

In an effort to bring more attention to the accomplishments of women in the ecommerce space, I’m having an all-female guest list. Throughout the month I’ll be talking to boss ladies who are running their own online businesses.

As this is a premier, it’s only fitting to start off with Natalie Mounter. Natalie owns and runs a wedding decor shop called Totally Dazzled. But around here, she’s known as the OG superfan. 

Here’s a peek at what we covered.

Losing sight of the “why”

Like many solopreneurs, Natalie went through a year where she scrambled just to get a seat at ‘the million-dollar table'. While her business grew 2x in revenue, she didn't quite hit 1M and ended up losing money when she outsourced Facebook advertising to two agencies.

Social media and its impact

Over the years, Natalie’s business has gained quite a following on social media. But her brand shines brightest on Pinterest. Totally Dazzled has 450K monthly viewers and Natalie uses the platform for leads. She also enjoys doing tutorials that feature her products so she plans to pump more content into the brand's YouTube channel for her 20K subscribers to share and enjoy.

On the Facebook side of things, she keeps followers engaged via Facebook Live. She later turns these sessions into ads, which have been doing quite well.

She and I delve deeper into Facebook marketing and explore other avenues where she can use the platform to build new audience streams and build a bigger following, which hopefully translates to greater profit.

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Finally, if you enjoyed listening and think this episode has been useful to you, please take a moment to leave us a review on iTunes.

If you have any questions or comments, feel free to leave them below. Happy selling!

Full Audio Transcript

Natalie: A hundred percent legitimate, yeah I refer to that as the “Brad Pitt moment” because I was so excited. I felt like I was meeting Brad Pitt when I was meeting you.

Intro: This is Mike and welcome to episode number 262 of the EcomCrew Podcast, and so good to have you guys along with us today. Today is a big day; we got a bunch to talk about. First of all, real quick before we even get into the episode, this is the last day to sign up for EcomCrew Premium before we close it for this round. Next time it'll be open will be later in the fall. So if you're interested in EcomCrew Premium, I encourage you to go check that out at EcomCrew.com/premium. 

You'll get access to all five of our courses including our new email marketing course which let us get 50% of our revenue for ColorIt.com, its amazing what email marketing did for us there. You also get access to twice monthly webinars, unlimited email support from Dave and I, our private Facebook group and more. So EcomCrew.com/premium will get you access to that. We have a monthly and an annual plan. So I encourage you guys to check that out. Again, it does close today, so this is your last chance until the fall to hop into that. 

Now the other big thing I want to talk about is something that's been bothering me for quite a while, which is the lack of women in e-commerce and entrepreneurship. And I first kind of, noticed this the first time I went to an Ecommerce Fuel live event. And there was like 150 people there and maybe five to seven women. And obviously, this is something that's also been in the news a lot, just women's issues and things of this nature, just more prolific in the news and getting more attention, so that that helps you see these things more. 

And then the thing that really was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back for me, that made me want to do this series that's coming up, we did our mastermind in Hong Kong where 23 people came. We actually sold it out. We only had spots for 20. We had to find a room for three more people in there. There wasn't a single woman. And the year before there was at least, there was three women there but we've gone from three to zero. And it just kind of sheds light on the fact that there is a lack of women. And so I thought what would be cool was to do women's month on the EcomCrew Podcast. 

And I know that we have a decent number of women that listen. I know that we also have a decent number of women who have not gotten into this yet and they're just thinking about it and maybe they're on the fence. Maybe even a husband or boyfriend is listening to this and might encourage their significant other to listen to this. And only if we can change one person's mind about being on the fence and actually jumping in, then this series is worthwhile. Even if you’re not a woman and don't have any interest in these types of things, I understand that too. 

I think you'll find these episodes to be really interesting because there's a bunch of really great women that we've got to come on these podcasts to do women's month. So, all nine episodes in the month of July are going to be women entrepreneurs. Most of them are e-commerce store owners that have created amazing businesses and I think you'll enjoy their stories. I thought the best way to kick it off since it's the closing of EcomCrew Premium today, and we have this women's month thing coming up, our superfan Natalie, who I've talked about on the podcast before has never been on the podcast and I thought for her to kick it off would be the right thing to do for women's month. 

So today Natalie is going to talk about her business and some things that have also been bothering me which is also these top line revenue numbers that people are always throwing around and becoming more and more. So many people are putting I think too much weight into and not focusing on what really matters, which is your profit and the why, like why did you get into this to begin with? So Natalie and I get into that and a whole bunch more about her business. She's an amazing entrepreneur. I think you guys are going to enjoy this episode. Enough of me blabbering, let's get into the episode with Natalie.

Mike: Hey Natalie, welcome to the EcomCrew Podcast. 

Natalie: Oh my gosh, I cannot believe this is happening.

Mike: As you say that I have like this huge smile on my face. I wish that this was recorded with video but you have been dubbed our super fan but we have to talk about that a little bit because you introduced another super fan. I think that she's elevated over you now.

Natalie: What!

Mike: Yeah, she joined EcomCrew Premium. 

Mike: Yeah, Anetta joined EcomCrew Premium, so she's now — money talks so she's now the superfan. 

Natalie: Oh my goodness. Is she going to be on the podcast too? I got to figure out how to compete now. 

Mike: I won't let her on the podcast for a while so you can have that designation. You guys can go back and forth and fight over who's cooler now.

Natalie: Okay. It's a competition. It's on Anetta!

Mike: So I always love to tell this story of how we first met because I legitimately thought that Steve Chou was pranking me because you walked up to me like all like, oh my God, Mike Jackness, I can't believe I get to finally meet you. And I, first of all, like no one ever does that and especially a woman and a pretty one at that. And I was just like, okay Steve, like how much did you pay this girl to like, you found this girl randomly in the lobby and gave her 10 bucks to come over and prank me like Andrew did at his event. And I was just like — and then it was real. And I realized like what an idiot I was and I felt so stupid because I didn't think that you were being legitimate. 

Natalie: 100% legitimate. Yeah, I refer to that as the Brad Pitt moment because I was so excited I felt that I was meeting Brad Pitt when I was meeting you. But it had been a long time coming. I had been listening to your podcast for over a year at that time. I first discovered you in the Ecommerce Fuel forums because you had posted these, just, mind blowing, epic posts in there and I was like, who is this Mike Jackness? I need to know more about him. And so that's when I started to listen to the podcast and became the super fan, or in competition super fan now, I guess. 

Mike: Right, right. Well, the reason I wanted to have you on is not because you're a super fan, but because I think that you're super woman. I mean, you have done an amazing job with your business. And I really want to talk about that because there's just a lack of women in entrepreneurship. It seems like you go to these events, and it's what, nine to one or something like that. I mean, it's kind of crazy. We had a kind of an embarrassing moment at our mastermind in Hong Kong this year. There were 23 people who attended and there wasn't a single woman this year. So we've actually extended an invite to all women to come at a discount next year to try to balance this out a bit. 

But I think more women talking about this will encourage other women to get in entrepreneurship and you've done an incredible job. So we're going to talk about your business and what you've built. We're going to talk about how trying to continue to build it and get on the same playing field as all these other entrepreneurs just so you can say that magical, “I’m a seven figures seller” saying ultimately made you miserable, and also how you've been able to leverage social media to build just this incredible business. I think there's a bunch of stuff to talk about and unpack here. But first, as I was kind of talking about, you built this amazing business. So in your own words, what is it that you do? What's your website? How did you get into it and all that good stuff?

Natalie: All right, well, my site is called Totallydazzled.com. And there we sell what I lovingly refer to as wedding bling, which is basically just sparkly things for weddings like napkin rings, brooches, and embellishments. And I think like what you said, what makes us special is that we create a lot of awesome content around our products, DIY tutorials, inspirational styled wedding shoots, guides, and that's really what differentiates us from our competition. And it's the part of the business that I'm really truly passionate about. 

Mike: Yeah. Awesome and like I said, you've leveraged social media quite a bit to be able to build that. I think it's just amazing. It's just been brute force. I mean you're not selling anything that's like particularly branded or anything like that. So it's I mean, people are buying you and then the attention that you're creating and being there at the right place at the right time, which I think ultimately in e-commerce moving forward is going to be the moat. If you think about things just kind of moving forward, where things are progressing, people that have the attention and authority are going to be the ones that are going to be the most successful. And you’ve built that and are continuing to build that. And I'm excited to talk about that today. 

Natalie: Thank you. 

Mike: Yeah. But the first thing I do want to talk about, as I mentioned, kind of shooting for it. So this conversation happened. We were in Miami, it was after Seller’s Summit, and one of the guys from one of my offline masterminds lives there and he was nice enough to throw a party. This guy if you ever get to meet him, he's the big teddy bear we call him, he's just the nicest guy ever. And he had like about 30, 40 people over there, full open bar and like food and like no one brought any. I mean he was just — he's just an awesome dude. And you happened to be in town an extra day. And we were talking and something really resonated with me because I've been hearing this stuff a lot but no one ever talks about this. 

And I always try to be different on this podcast and keep it real. And Dave’s saying always is revenues are vanity and profits are sanity, but people just don't seem to get this enough. And even myself, like I'll admit, like, especially in in 2017, 2018, there was a period there where it's like all I cared about which is growing to a certain number because we had done it before and we were on this path. And I was like on a warpath just to achieve it for no other reason than I wanted to do it. And it doesn't make a lot of sense because in the process of doing that, it made me stressed out, it made me kind of crazy. It made me abandon the things that made us successful to get to the success that we had to begin with and I just wasn't as happy. 

And yeah, we put up this big number, and it's really cool to talk about, but at the end of the day, in terms of percentages, we were making less. And when we started focusing on making more, we made a whole bunch more money. And in actuality for us, our revenue didn't go down. So it was a really cool period. But I was talking to you, and you were basically saying you were trying to get to this $1 million mark, because that seems to be this line in the sand where all the cool kids hang out there, the million dollar sellers. And you were not quite there, and you were doing everything you could to get there. So talk about that a little bit. I mean, what was kind of going through your mind and let's spend a few minutes just kind of chatting about that whole process and where you're at right now. 

Natalie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, when I started the business, I really had like zero expectations and the business really has exceeded my expectations every year, which has been great. So the year we met in 2017, I made just about — I did just about 250,000 in sales. And I was feeling personally amazing about that at the time. I was feeling really, really good about it. But then as time went on, and you do meet all these like seven figure, eight figure, whatever sellers, you start to like your 250k is just not looking as good. And I really, it's kind of exactly what you said; I wanted a seat at the cool kids' table. I wanted to hit that million dollar mark. And I really wanted it for all the wrong reasons. And it actually conflicted with a lot of my whys of why I really started this business in the first place.

So yeah, I went after chasing that million dollar number and I did. I took on so many things that I really didn't want to take on just in pursuit of that sort of vanity metric. And I lost sight of the things that were really important to me like freedom, free time, flexibility, in pursuit of that goal. And I mean, like you said too, so basically that year, I almost doubled, which is great. So I didn't hit that million dollar mark. But I was a little over 500,000, which is wonderful, except that I was actually miserable in my business for the very first time ever, and I lost money for the first time ever in my business. 

And those things obviously, led me to be very unhappy. And I'd never experienced that before. My business had always been a source of joy for me. So it was a really tough year. But at the end of the day, it was a really important year because it really forced me to take a step back and evaluate what I do in this business that makes me happy and forget everything else. And to really remember my whys like why did I start this business in the first place and if it doesn't align with — if a certain task or a new project doesn't align with what makes me happy and with my reasons why, I'm just flat out saying no to it these days, and I feel a lot happier. 

So last year, we did not grow at all, we stayed at around 500k, but we got our profitability back to a very happy place. And I'm doing the things now again that I enjoy in my business and I'm feeling very, very happy again. 

Mike: Awesome. Well, amen sister. I love the fact that you said that, and thank you for being courageous to talk about this. I mean, again, I know it's tough because I talk about this stuff as well. And because a lot of people aren't talking about it, it's always difficult to kind of be the first one or be the person talking about it. And I just know from talking to people privately, that this is something that a lot of people are feeling and going through. And I think it's awesome that you were willing to share that, so thank you for doing that. 

When you were talking about going from 250 to 500 and it caused you to lose money, let's talk a little bit about that. I mean, was it just overspending on ads or throwing good money after bad? What specifically was causing that problem? 

Natalie: Mm-hmm. One of the big things was that I knew I needed to get into like Facebook advertising. I knew nothing about it. It really overwhelmed me in all honesty, just the platform and the technology. I was like, oh, this is not my forte or my strong suit, but I know I have to do it. Maybe I'll buy my way into the million dollar club. Maybe I'll hire a really fancy agency and they'll help me do it and it'll be great. Of course not, you can't buy your way in. I don't know why I was so naive. You have to do the work. And that was like a huge disaster. So I went — I worked with a really expensive agency. They did a terrible job. They didn't care at all. 

Then I worked with like a medium sized agency. They were a little bit better, but not really, it was still a losing proposition. So that was a really big tough lesson learned. But I should have known better. But had I been thinking clearly, instead of just chasing a goal that I don't really care about, I think I would have avoided that mistake. 

Mike: Yeah. And I mean, so first of all, I'll say this, I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about it. I think that all of us have to go through this. These are the types of things that I truly believe that it doesn't matter how much coaching you get, or how much talking to other people you do. To a certain extent, you kind of have to go through it yourself and feel the pain to really understand. And for some reason, it's cyclical. I feel like I learn this lesson and then I forget it over time and go back to it. 10 years later, I feel like I'm in the same boat. I think it's just the entrepreneurial mindset. We all grew up in this environment of comparing ourselves to others. I mean, social media itself, which is one of the reasons why I've kind of disconnected from it perpetuates this and makes it worse.

And again, you want to be able to say, I want to be able to say I was an eight figure seller, so I would just add a zero, same problem. And for no other reason than I just put that number out there, it doesn't mean anything. It's like, what's the difference in being 40 versus 39, or whatever. It's one year difference, it doesn't really mean all that much. But we put a lot into these round numbers like the year 2000 or whatever these things just psychologically are like a fish swimming to a lure. And it just happens I think and you got to fight every day to think clearly and not let yourself get into this. And a lot of it is from previous experiences. 

So again, I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about it. I think that it's good that you have now kind of seen the light and learn that lesson. I mean, again, I've gone through a similar thing myself over the last year and I know there's lots of other people out there listening that have done the same thing. So there's that. And the other thing just real quick, I really wish that we could — and I know this is not practical. But I wish that we could all go around saying, I made $100,000 a year — $100,000 last year in my business, the actual profit. Let's talk about that. Because as you said, I mean, someone could say they’re million dollar seller and literally be losing money. And I know a lot of people that are in this boat.

I mean, it's actually really easy. And I'm not trying to piss anybody off out there by saying this, but it's actually really easy to sell a million dollars’ worth of stuff in e-commerce. All you got to do is crank up the advertising budget. It's like really like that easy. I mean, you can be losing tons of money, but it's incredibly easy. You just set a budget every day of $10,000. And no matter how bad you are at an e-commerce, you'll still sell a million dollars with the stuff. It's relatively easy. The hard part is making a living out of it and having a legitimate business that you can support you and your family off of. 

And I wish that we talk more about that, talk more about the net profit numbers and people would focus on that more. Now everyone focuses on this top line number because that's the barometer to join million dollars seller Facebook group, it's the barometer to join Ecommerce Fuel, it's the barometer to get in the mastermind. It's this barometer that's out there in the industry and I'm not really sure how to fix it, but it causes a lot of these ancillary problems. So I just wanted to throw that out there. 

Natalie: Absolutely.

Mike: So let's shift into some more exciting stuff. Because I do think, I firmly believe without a doubt that you're going to hit this million dollar number and you're going to do it over the next couple of years. And you're going to do it incredibly profitably by going back and focusing on what got you to where you are, like what brought you the success so far, which is social media marketing. You've built this incredible Pinterest following. You've built an incredible YouTube channel and these types of things snowball. You're Canadian, so we'll use the hockey analogy, will have hockey stick growth.

And I really believe that. I've seen that over and over again over a 15 year period of doing things online. And right about this time period, year threeish or four, you really start to see this hockey stick growth. And especially with things like social media, your first 1,000 subscribers are so brutal, it's like so tough to get that, and then the next 1,000 significantly easier, and then it gets easier and easier. And by doubling down on what you're doing, I think that you're going to get more and more attention, more and more eyeballs, and that's going to translate into sales for you and these are cheaper sales. 

I mean, these are sales that you're not paying for in the same way. You're obviously paying upfront with your time and effort and energy. But once the traffic is coming in, it's relatively on autopilot and free. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about the different pillars, the components that you use to build that. We’ll start with the most impressive number here that I'm looking at which is 450,000 monthly viewers on Pinterest. So let's talk about that and how you leverage that to drive sales. 

Natalie: Mm-hmm. Well, Pinterest is great. It definitely works really well with my wedding kind of niche, but I think it's applicable to a lot of other niches as well. I try to post especially in the beginning, when I was starting my Pinterest account, I posted a lot or I re-pinned a lot of other people's content like pins that were already performing well or that I thought were really beautiful to my boards. So that helps a lot in the very beginning stages. I think recently, Pinterest launched a new tool called the SmartLoop. Actually, it's not Pinterest, it's Tailwind which is a Pinterest scheduling tool, sorry. 

So with Tailwind, there's this really cool new tool called the SmartLoop. And it really makes your life as a Pinterest marketer a lot easier because you can add your pins to the SmartLoop and set them to just repeat every — you can set your own parameters. So that's been very effective because once you set it up, you're pretty much done. I mean, you can check back on it like every quarter or something and remove pins that aren't performing as well. But once you do that, it's just a matter of adding new pins, and it just continues to work for you, which I really like because one of the things that is really important to me is free time. 

So anytime I can invest a little bit of time into something, and then it works for me continuously without my direct attention, that's something that makes me very happy in my business. 

Mike: Yeah, love it. And so how is this turning into actual sales for you? Because it's obviously cool to throw up big numbers as we were just talking about, you can get a following on Pinterest, but how is that turning into business for you? 

Natalie: Mm-hmm. One thing I will say with the Pinterest traffic is that it's the lowest converting traffic out of my main traffic sources. I think Pinterest users are very much in like that really early stages of the buying cycle. They're kind of in that window shopping phase. So that's one cautionary tale which is why I like the SmartLoop so much, because it's not really worth it for me to invest too much time on. Our Pinterest traffic though does convert pretty well on our lead magnets. So that's a lot of the new pins we create are going to be really around generating leads, and then we'll convert them through email, like you're always telling us to do.

Mike: Nice. So has that been working for you? I mean, it sounds like you're doubling down on that. So you got a taste of that, and it was working and now you're doing more?

Natalie: Exactly, yep. So we've figured out over the years that that's the best way to kind of harness our Pinterest traffic and get the most out of it is really focusing on the lead generation. 

Mike: So you build a relationship with people, you get them when they're early in the process. They maybe just got engaged and wedding is far off in the future. They're starting to look around. But they're still a year out so they're not buying stuff yet, but you communicate with them through email over a period of time. And when they're ready to pull the trigger, you're at the right place at the right time. 

Natalie: Absolutely. 

Mike: Yeah. Perfect. Awesome, so it's cool seeing those principles work in other businesses. We've had a lot of people talk about that recently. I think that we're going to try to do an episode about that, because there's been lots of people in all these different industries that have been able to apply this system and make it work and it's cool seeing it work in the wedding space as well, so cool. All right, so let's talk about the YouTube channel then. So how did you get started with that? How has that been going? Where do you stand with that? And how has that turned into business as well? 

Natalie: Mm-hmm. Well, the YouTube channel is probably my favorite part of the business even though I've really neglected it in my opinion over the past couple years. Because you don't really necessarily see that super clear cut okay conversion like you do with a Facebook ad and because I was chasing this million dollar number and just thinking kind of more short term. But the YouTube channel is amazing. And I think it's where we make those lasting relationships and where we create that moat, like you said, around our business. So the YouTube channel, I really focus on tutorial content. So teaching either brides or sometimes even wedding professionals how to create things for weddings and events.

And tutorial content works really, really well on YouTube. So I would encourage people to not just showcase their product, but to do it in a more subtle way on YouTube and to use your product but use it in a way where you're teaching people something, but you just happen to be using your product. And it works really, really well. We built our following pretty quickly without creating too many videos, but like I said, that is my passion in the business. And that's where I'm going to be doubling down this year. 

Mike: Yeah, I think that, again, just we were talking about that before, I mean double down on what hss already made you successful, double down on what you enjoy doing, what you’re a natural at. I mean, there's no reason to diversify away from that stuff until you've kind of hit the ceiling with that stuff. And you're still relatively at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to that. I mean, you can continue to grow your YouTube channel probably to a million subscribers or something before you start to hit any resistance. And even then it might continue to continue to grow quite a bit, and you're perfect for it. 

I mean, you're just like it's like the perfect personality to be doing that. And it's like, why bottle you up and stick you behind a Facebook ad or a Pinterest post because your personality doesn't get to come through in the same way as it would on YouTube. And I think that people should leverage their best qualities. And I mean for you, I mean you're like the perfect person to be doing that type of video content. So I definitely would encourage you to continue to do it. 

Natalie: Thank you so much Mike. Yeah, I really love it. It's super fun. And to me, it's just a very comfortable way to sell, like it's so not salesy and I'm very comfortable selling that way. 

Mike: Yeah, yeah, I love it. I mean it's the same thing that we do. I mean, I hate being a sales guy, I feel like just so dirty. It's just like if someone wants it, they'll buy it when they're ready. And if they aren't happy with it when they do buy it, we’ll just give them their money back. It's pretty simple. And I know we could make more by pushing things or saying things or taking things, pushing the envelope, but I want to be able to sleep at night. And so it's important to us to focus on those things. And it sounds like you're in the same boat. And I think it's awesome. 

Natalie: Thank you. 

Mike: Yeah. So speaking of video ads which I — so one of the cool things we've been doing recently, we've had our awesome assistant back in the Philippines: Abby, do some pre interview stuff. So I have just more topics to talk about on the podcast of things that I might not have known. And this is one thing that I did not know. So I'm glad that we took the time out to do this pre interview stuff. It sounds like you are doing Facebook Lives and are taking those videos and turning them into Facebook ads. And those are actually profitable ads. So I can't wait to hear about this because this is new for me. So I'm looking forward to hearing about how you're doing this. 

Natalie: Well, thank you. I really felt at the time that I was kind of doing it completely wrong and yet or against the norm or the grain, but somehow it works for us. So yeah, what started it was basically I had a product that was not selling that well. And I did a Facebook Live for it, just trying to promote it. And for whatever reason, it went a little bit crazy and viral and got a ton of engagement. So we turned it into an ad and it was working like a charm. The problem with that one was that I didn't expect to turn it into an ad. So I had included like a discount and all this stuff. So I was like okay, I have to fix this if I'm going to carry on with this. 

So I did it again. I recreated basically the same exact Facebook Live, but I did it even on a bigger, better, sort of scale. And so I went live and I showcased the product in a really beautiful way. And I showed people like a really quick tutorial on how easy it is to use. And because of the live, it gets a lot of natural engagement right off the top. So the post is doing well and has lots of likes and comments and shares. And then after I'm done with the live, I post it to our page, and then I spend the rest of the day like engaging a lot in the comments again, just to build up the engagement and just keep the conversation going. And then I turn it into a Facebook ad. 

And a lot of them are really against the grain in terms of people are always saying like, oh, it should be 60 seconds or less. The one that performs really well that I was just talking about is almost 15 minutes. And I have another one that is even crazier, where I do like a live brooch bouquet tutorial. And the point of that one was to like show people that you can really do this in like less than an hour and it's really easy and fun. And that we also got tons of engagement so we turned it into an ad and it's performing very well. And that one is 45 minutes. 

So it's crazy. But I think when people spend like a good amount of time with you, like it just — and it's live video, and it's — I think it builds that know, like, trust really, really quickly, and people are just so much more comfortable giving the credit card and ordering from you. And I think that's part of what makes them effective for us. 

Mike: Yeah, I mean, we did the same thing with ColorIt and still doing it even though we've sold it now, we have someone else that runs ColorIt Live for us. But every week we ran ColorIt Live, it's an hour long and as you said, you're building a relationship and trust and when it comes time to pull out their credit card, they feel like they know you and it makes it that much easier to get the sale. So very awesome that you're doing that and you had a question here. We're going to get to in a little bit about this as well. So I'll save that for just a few minutes because I do want to talk about one other component here that seems to be working well for you, which is affiliate marketing.

And I think that you're the perfect type of niche to be doing that and you're using Refersion, which is the same app that we used when we were doing affiliate program. It didn't work as well for us because coloring is not really a great product line to be doing affiliate marketing, there's not a lot of wedding planner type people in the industry. If you think of wedding planning, like how big the industry is, and how many sites are out there about this and people talking about it, coloring just there's only a couple of couple of sites out there that even really are prime targets for affiliate program. And most of the people that sign up for it were these discount sites. 

So the world that people are searching for ColorIt coupon at the last second and finding us and getting a discount even though they were going to buy anyway. So we just eliminated it because the reality was it wasn't enough partners out there for us. But for you, it sounds like it's working well and it makes sense because there's just so many people out there. So let's talk about that for a sec. 

Natalie: Yeah, our affiliates have been a huge driver of traffic and revenue. This program has only been — we've only been doing it for maybe six months or so. But it's been hugely successful and it's another thing we're going to be really focusing on in the future. So how I started it was that I was already pretty familiar with some related YouTube channels to my own. And so those are the people that I started reaching out to first. And they're mostly micro, I would say micro influencers, like under 100,000 subscribers. 

Some of them are bigger than that now, because we've kind of grown with them over time, but like 100,000 or less I think is a good number where the influencer is willing to work basically for free product and a commission and they're not at the level where they want you to pay up front, 500, 1,000 whatever it is dollars for a video. We have done that in the past as well. And I do not recommend that, it was not successful for us anyway. So yeah, I just reached out to a whole bunch of these YouTube influencers with kind of related channels to ours and just my subject line was can we pay you to work with us?

Mike: Nice, I love that.

Natalie: Yeah, so that caught their attention, because especially because they are sort of more micro influencers that aren't getting these big paid deals yet. So we had a really great response from that. With the Refersion app, it's really easy for them to sign up with you and it's totally automated. Refersion app will track the traffic they're driving, the sales that they're making. And you can set your own parameters as well, which I really liked. So you can set the commission you want to pay, you can set the window, like the cookie window you want to set, all these things if you want to pay commission on shipping or not, discounts or not. It's all in there. It takes only a few minutes to set up and it's really, really easy to use. 

And then yeah, we started just sending these affiliates product and just waiting. I have to say, don't really babysit them very much. I kind of give them like full creative freedom, we suggest products. So every month, we send out an email campaign to our affiliates. And it just will suggest either a product or a project for the month. But then we always include like a PS that says, if this isn't going to work for you this month, or if you have something else, like, of course, just email us back, tell us what you want, and we will send it to you. 

So we just try to be really supportive of them. And in turn, they're equally supportive to us. We don't like make really serious the video has to be out by this date. And we try to like just be cool with them and they're equally cool with us. And it makes for a much more happy relationship in my mind. So yeah, and then every month, you can pay all of your affiliates with basically like one click in the Refersion app. So it's pretty well automated between the email campaigns and the Refersion app at this point, which is great. 

Mike: Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head on every single thing. We actually have an episode that I did about this. We went through the same exact process of like you did with trying to — we aimed high, right? It's like you want to get these huge numbers. And so we went out to these big YouTube influencers to begin that had half a million or a million subscribers and these people were basically primadonnas by that point and they're really hard to work with. They want an unrealistic amount of money, you go in the sub 50, sub 100,000 market, and as you're laying out and they're just happy as can be to get free product and have content to make for their channel and talk about a win-win. 

And as you were saying, some of these guys grow to be really big and you grow with them and they already have a relationship with you and they don't want to mess with that. So I mean, I think that you're going about it the perfect way. This is the way to run an affiliate program and just make sure that you restrict that so you don't end up in a situation like we were in where the retail-me-nots of the world or whatever are just signing up so they can optimize for SEO for a Totally Dazzled coupon because that's…

Natalie: No, no not at all. Yeah, we really, really focus on creators, not so much even like blogs or anything at this point, but yeah, like I love it, to me it's a no brainer. They're like a commission, 100% commission sales force who are out there helping me, working for me. And I'm helping them by giving them free product. A lot of these content creators, especially when they're just starting out, they're going out of pocket and buying all these crafting supplies and all this stuff to make content, so they really appreciate getting free stuff. 

Mike: Yeah. And they're the ones that not only they appreciate free stuff but they want that stuff right. I mean like you said, they're going out and buying this, they're going to go buy it anyway because these are channels that have an interest in that. You're not like one level up with like a mommy blogger or just a lifestyle blogger. I guess there's a probably a better one for you where they don't really care about your products or will only do it if they get paid. And you're in the niche of YouTube influencers that would be buying your products regardless and that's a really good spot to be in. 

Natalie: Yeah, it's awesome. It's been a really great experience working with all of them. I mean it's been fantastic. 

Mike: Cool. All right, so I want to save a few minutes here. Well, first of all, before I get into the questions that you had submitted that you wanted some help with, did I miss anything? Is there anything else that you think that would be worthwhile to kind of share with the audience or do we want to move on to the questions? 

Natalie: Yeah, we can move on to the questions. Sure. 

Mike: Okay, cool. Awesome, so there were two things here that Abby took a note of that you had that you wanted to ask us, which I think is a great opportunity here to do. So the first one here was tips on how to optimize your Facebook Lives. And were there any strategies that we used on our ColorIt Facebook Lives? One of the things that worked really well for us, and I'm not sure if you're already doing this or not, but we started doing a giveaway like every 15 minutes. It doesn't have to be something big, but it really keeps engagement up. 

So we give away like basically a book every 15 minutes. It cost us 30 bucks for the shelf for each week or something. I mean it's basically insignificant, but people stay tuned just to see if they're going to win. And every five or so minutes, we're talking about, like, stay tuned for the giveaway. And we have like a little counter on the screen. And people that are thinking about signing off think twice about signing off. And it keeps your numbers high throughout the entire show. So that works really well. 

And another thing that we did was put a requirement to win that you have to share. So people would just like slam on the share button and the like button on the Facebook Live because they wanted to win. And we didn't actually honestly verify that because you got hundreds of people on the Facebook Live. And there's all this commotion going on and trying to figure out who did what is impossible. So we just pick a random person who was on there, but we would tell people, you make sure that you share and like it otherwise you can't win. And so it created all this, especially at the very beginning, it created some really great social signals for Facebook. And it would help us continue to get more traction for the show throughout the show. So that worked really well.

Natalie: That’s on.

Mike: Another thing that worked really well is we always promoted because we actually got way more viewership in the Facebook live after the fact and we started realizing this. And we always thought man, like the number of people that are watching live is the ultimate definition of success here because this is a Facebook Live. You take the name and take it literally and that was what we were measuring success on. But we started realizing that thousands of more people, exponentially more people than were watching it live were watching it after the fact. 

So what we started doing is actually promoting our Facebook Lives to our fans with just a modest budget of something like 20 bucks a day. And we were actually doing this through AdEspresso at the time. You can probably just do it manually at this point. But the way that we actually did it was by mistake. It's funny how sometimes things get invented or figured out by mistake. But the way that this happened was we had AdEspresso set to automatically boost every post for 20 bucks a day after it reached 50 likes. And to do that for a week to our fans, the audience was our Facebook fans. 

And so the thought process here — well, first of all, like why would you do that? Why would you promote to your own fans, they're already your fans? But the reality is, is that the way that the Facebook algorithm works is that they're only going to show your content to a small portion of your audience, it's a very small portion get to see it. And if it's a post that's doing really well, then a larger portion will see it but it's still a relatively small portion of your audience. 

So by boosting the content that your audience is already basically voting on, right, if you take posts that reach 50 likes, which is maybe like one out of 10 of our post or something organically reach 50 likes, and then boost those posts, then it accelerates what's already — what fans are already voting on and it's like all automatic. And it cost an extra $140 to do this because we were doing $20 a day for seven days. And the results are amazing. Like the amount of sales that we generate because of those posts pay way more than the $140 that we're spending on the post. 

And those are the posts that get the most viral interactions because our fans are interacting with it but then all of their friends see it and then their friends of their friends see it and it becomes like this viral type thing and the stats and the metrics within Facebook are really strong on these particular posts. So that was already set up and doing really well and because our Facebook Lives were getting 50 likes after the fact, they were automatically getting boosted and we were seeing when we started looking at our stats just like how well that was working, it was kind of crazy. So the only things that you can do is just boost those for a few days for whatever budget you feel — you can do it for five bucks, it doesn't have to be a lot of money, but promote it just to your fans. That works really well. 

Natalie: I love that. That makes so much sense. I mean even as a first step before turning it into like a full blown ad to cold traffic. It probably makes so much more sense because then you're building up ad engagement even more. 

Mike: Exactly, yeah. So when you do turn it into an ad, here's another tip, and I wrote this down and wanted to make sure I mention this. But you're saying that these videos that you do that are 10, 15, 45 minutes long are the ones that are performing the best, which is amazing. What you want to do in this case, within Facebook, you can make an audience of people who watch X percent of your video. So any of your videos that are more than let's say 15 minutes, I would just start creating audiences of people who watch let's say, 50% or more. 

If they've watch five, seven and a half minutes, 15 minutes, whatever, let's say it's a 30 minute video and they've watched 15 minutes of the video, these people are engaged like there are really warm leads. And by creating an audience of the people that have watched that much of the video, you can specifically retarget them after the fact because you're making an audience of people that took this action of watching X percent of these videos and then you can run some other ad to them, whatever that might be. 

And you'll figure out over time, what performs best there, maybe it's a lead magnet, maybe it's a sale on some item, whatever it might be, maybe it's more content, whatever it is, you'll find something that's going to work. But 100% of people who have watched seven and a half minutes of content, 15 minutes of content, whatever it is, they are really engaged and very interested in what you're doing. And you need to make sure that you capture them onto your email list or get them as a customer however you can. So by building that custom audience of people who watched X percent of your video, you can work on that objective. 

Natalie: That is great. And that is something we are not doing, but we definitely will do that now. Thank you. 

Mike: Cool. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And the other thing you can do over time as you get — and this might not work as well for you. But I would still try it because the reason why — let me just kind of go through what I'm talking about real quick. The other thing you can do is as you build these audiences of people who are watching X percent of these videos and you get enough of them, you can make a lookalike audience of those people. But the thing that might not work well for you is that your market is a moving target. It's difficult to nail that down, a moving target because someone is getting married, it's a finite amount of time that you can advertise to them, there's a definitive line in the sand. 

Once they get married, they're no longer a potential customer for you, because they've already had that event, they're not going to buy more product from you. And so a lookalike audience might not work as well there because Facebook might have a hard time actually figuring out who those people are in that moment of time. But I've also learned to never underestimate Facebook and all the data points that they have and how crazy the data analytics can be and it might actually still work. So I would definitely give it a try. 

Once you get 5,000, 10,000 people on these types of list, you can then create a 1% lookalike audience of those people and just see what happens. It's free, it doesn't cost you anything to make that list and you can spend a relatively small amount of money advertising to that 1% lookalike audience and see what happens. And it might be one of these things that it works really, really well. And it's the next thing that takes you to the next level in your business. Or it might be the biggest waste of $50 you ever had. So, it's one of those things.

Natalie: $50 risk seems doable. 

Mike: Yeah, that's what's amazing about Facebook is that you know with a relatively small amount of money. You think about the old days of advertising and how much you would have to spend and how much of a risk you would have to take and how long you would have to wait to get results. And with Facebook, it's basically you go to bed and wake up the next thing you know if you have a success in your hands or not. 

Natalie: Mm-hmm, amazing. 

Mike: So any other questions on that? 

Natalie: No. Thank you. Thank you so much. 

Mike: Yeah. So we're going to move on to the next one that you have here. So at what point does it make sense to hire someone in-house for Facebook ads? And you've already mentioned that you've tried agencies, but they've been a disaster. So, this one is a much tougher question to answer because it's also been a struggle for me. We've hired three people in-house to do this and they've all eventually disappointed me in some way mostly by leaving. It's a very difficult thing to train for, and/or hire for. 

So my recommendation, first of all, is to never hire another agency to do this again. I think there's two things I always talk about that I would never hire an agency to do, or delegate, or I shouldn't say delegate or outsource, I should say, because I'm very big on delegating. But the two things I would never outsource or give to someone else are SEO and Facebook ads. SEO because an SEO agency or someone you outsource to is in this horrible predicament of having to produce results before you realize that you've spent money and haven't gotten an ROI for it. 

So they're always going to be pushing the envelope of black hat, grey hat, whatever tactics to produce results to keep you as a client. And most people aren't patient enough to have a true white hat agency work on this over 12 or 18 months to produce results so they're having to push the envelope. And for them, the risk is zero because if your site goes into a black hole, they just move on to the next client and you're the one left with this horrible situation of having to disavow links or try to get your site out of the garbage can when it comes to Google. The risk is just too damn high, to outsource it is the bottom line. 

So we do all this in-house. And we do it in-house because my employees listen to me about what to do, they aren't going to go push the envelope because they don't even know what the envelope is. They only know what I tell them. And so they don't know what the black hat tactics are, they aren't going to go out and try to buy links or submit things to directories or whatever other tactics that are out there in the black hat world these days. They don't even know about them. They just do what I tell them to do, which is all this white hat stuff and I'm patient, we will win over time. And that's what I care about. And I don't want to have to worry about waking up in the morning and finding our sites blacklisted from Google.

So that's one thing that I don't outsource. The other thing is Facebook, because it's really difficult for an agency to really understand how to run Facebook ads for you. No one is going to understand your company as well as you understand your company and your audience and the little idiosyncrasies that make you you and your business your business. And Facebook agencies are motivated for all the wrong reasons. It's like all based on ad spend or the metrics are all screwed up. It isn't – it's never off of how much you make. 

There isn't a Facebook agency out there. It's like, oh, we're going to take 10% cut of how much profit you make off of these sales. That's not how they work. It's “we're going to charge you 10% on top of how much we spend” so they're motivated to spend more money. And if they don't produce results again, the risk is relatively low, they can go on to the next company. And the only thing I see with agencies is even if they start doing a really good job, over time, it fades because they'll pass you off to someone else or they get bigger and you become a less important factor in their business. 

And I mean, I guess maybe I'm cynical or jaded at this point, because I haven't heard one person ever say I love my Facebook agency ever. I've been in this mastermind for three years. It's a mastermind of people who spend X dollars more in Facebook ads, I forget the number now, but it's a big number. And there's like, everyone in the group except for me, pretty much, there's a couple of people that are like me, has tried an agency at some point, because this stuff is hard. I almost cursed because it's that hard. Facebook ads is difficult. It's a lot of work. But again, the reality is that everyone that's switched to an agency has come back to doing it themselves. 

And so the long and short of this, this is a very long winded response. My recommendation would be to hire for the other things in your business that you can hire for. Get yourself a VA and have them do this Facebook — or sorry this YouTube influencer outreach for you. That's taking a lot of time probably for you. I have someone on our staff that does all this for us. They go out and they do the — I wrote the email, the original email, although I think I'm going to change the subject line to yours because I love your subject line. We will pay you or we want to pay you, is that how you said it we want to pay you?

Natalie: Can we pay you? 

Mike: Can we pay you? I love that. I'm going to change our subject line. But we have someone else doing that and it's time consuming. There's lots of other little things like that, that you can hire someone for 600 bucks a month for that will do all this stuff. And it's — you probably already have 40 hours’ worth of work for them to do and you can free up even more of your time. And spend more time on doing the things that you enjoy, like producing video content and posting on social, the things that you like doing and have them do those outreach things for you on your behalf. 

But I do think at the end of the day that Facebook ads if you want to do it right at your size, it's got to be you. You can't afford the guy that Bill D’Alessandro hires to do Facebook ads. I mean, he's got a guy that he's paying probably 150k or 200k on his staff that can do it. And that's probably what it takes to get a good Facebook person and you're just not at the size to do it. So it's either do it yourself or just ignore it and do what's working well in your business right now until such a time where you can afford it. Because you certainly have these other revenue streams that are working well for you that you can continue to push the accelerator on. 

And even though everyone else is doing Facebook, and it seems like the sexy thing, it's kind of the same equivalent of just shooting for the million dollar number for no other reason than everyone else is doing it and it seems cool. And so I would encourage you to think about that as well. 

Natalie: Yeah, I think you're 100% right. I think I probably knew deep down that was the answer but I still had that wishful thinking.

Mike: Yeah, I think that there's some basic like blocking and tackling kind of things that you can do with Facebook retargeting, remarketing people that visit your site. These are simple things that you can set up with an app like, what's it called? Oh shit, I forget the name of the — Shoelace. Shoelace does this. I mean so if you don't even know anything about Facebook ads, you can use them if you don't want to know. You're doing Facebook Lives; the stuff I talked about here just a second ago is very simple to do. There's articles out there. 

I learned how to do it by just typing it into Google. So I know this stuff is out there because that's how I learned or just clicking around the interface. So these are basic things that can cost relatively little. Trying to do the more advanced stuff of cold traffic and all these different things are going to be a lot more difficult. And I think specifically for your niche, it's going to be even more difficult because again it's a moving target. It's hard to target someone. I guess you can actually target someone who is recently engaged. That might be a — I think that's actually still an attribute in Facebook. So you actually might have a lot of luck with that. 

But even still, I would just — you're still a solopreneur and everyone that's at the stage, lots of people out there that are listening this stuff, they hear all this cool stuff that Mike Jackness’s of the world are doing, and often forget that we have a team of 13 people doing it. You got to remember when I started, when it was just me, I wasn't able to do everything. You got to pick and choose your battles. And so that's the long winded response. I apologize for the diarrhea of the mouth there. 

Natalie: No, that's awesome, super helpful. 

Mike: Cool. So any other questions you want to throw out, anything else that's on your mind? 

Natalie: I guess our conversion rate is just a little bit over 2% right now. So I guess I'm curious if you have any recommendations on our site, what we can maybe do to improve that. 

Mike: So there are probably thousands of people hearing you say that, that want to crawl through the pipes of the internet and strangle you because that's actually a really good conversion rate. There's lots of people that are sub 1% and really struggling, I think 3% really about the bar of the best you can possibly do. So you're pretty close. And I'd have to look at your site. I didn't pull up your site ahead of time to be able to analyze it. And it's a tough question to just answer on the fly. But I can tell you that in terms of averages, if you look at something like the state of the merchant report, I forgot the exact number that's out there but you're right in the wheelhouse of what makes sense. 

I think in general, things that help them improve conversions, getting their email so you can market more over time. So if you have a pop up that offers a discount or a wheelie or something that even if they don't buy right then and there, you can continue to market to them over time, doing remarketing. So people that land on your cart, have abandoned carts, you're trying to extract those sales, making sure you have those basic things set up. The three pillars of what makes people convert on the internet is trust. So having a phone number or something on there that–, reviews or something that makes you just look bigger than you are maybe even without lying about it obviously, but it's the internet and you can — I'm a really handsome man on the internet, but in real life, it's a little bit different, right? So you want to…

Natalie: Brad Pitt!

Mike: Brad Pitt! (laughs)

Natalie: Brad Pitt of Ecommerce! 

Mike: You're just jaded but thank you. So, trust is important. Returns is really important. So I'm not sure what your return policy is, but making it very easy for people to return. I mean, we made fun of this on ColorIt. We would say even if like zombies wipe their brains on it, you can still return it for any reason within 30 days, and just make it super easy. That might not be possible with your business. So you got to just think about your business and how far you can push that envelope. But people know that if they buy from Amazon, they can return it for any reason. And it sucks as a person that sells on Amazon. I can promise you the things that we get back, I look at and I'm just like dismayed at the things that they'll take back.

But that exists out there and they've set that bar. And if you're below that bar, it makes it difficult to get the conversion over someone else that has that. And then shipping, offering free shipping is the other thing which you probably do. We always use a threshold for this for most of our brands, where if you spend X dollars, you get free shipping to encourage people to order slightly more than the average order value. But if you have these three basic things covered, everything that you'll do after this is going to give you diminishing returns. And I find that people often spend too much time and money trying to optimize their website before it's necessary. 

So I mean, at the level that you're at, let's just put this in perspective, if you're at a half a million dollars a year in sales, and you're able to improve your conversion rate by even a half a percent let's say, you might end up selling $50,000 worth of stuff more per year. I mean, that's really generous, that's really, really generous. And if you're operating at a 10% margin or let's say 20, you probably have higher margin, let's say it's 20% margin, you're going to make an extra $10,000 a year off of that, and the project to do the optimization is going to cost way more than that. 

So you're wasting your money by trying to get those extra sales, you'd be better off putting that into something that's going to flip the lever more for you. And so again, the basic things I talked about are important. And if you can implement any of those things, if you haven't already, then I want to encourage you to kind of work on some of those basic things. But when you start talking about putting like Optimizely on your site and doing AB testing and hiring a high level developer and designer to redesign the site to squeeze that extra half a percent conversion rate out, it's just going to be throwing good money after bad in your case because you don't have the traffic to justify it. 

Natalie: That's awesome. That's super awesome advice. And I think it really comes back to our initial discussion of goals and priorities and working on the things that make sense. And we all have seasons in our business. And when you're looking at a task, I think it's becoming obvious to me as the years go on, like you really have to weigh any particular option over what season you're in, like where you're at in your business, and whether it makes sense at this point, or if it's something you should be tackling when you hit a different level. So that makes so much sense. 

Mike: Exactly. Yeah. And again, just always keep in mind where you're at in your journey. You can't do the same thing that Walmart does. They’re a multibillion dollar international conglomerate. I have to always keep that in mind myself. I mean, there's a lot of things that I want to do in our business that we have to just say no to. And one of the things I've been talking a lot about lately, because I’ve started to get more philosophical, I feel like business knowledge and motivation is like this other calling that I have. And one of the things I've been saying a lot is that in reflecting on my own life and business, I think the things that actually make you most successful is not what you say yes to but actually what you say no to. 

And you need to be saying no more than you say yes, and very selectively saying yes because time is the most finite commodity that there is. And if you want to stay on your goals of freedom and have free time and have the lifestyle that you want to be able to go pick your kids up at school and those types of things, and those are the things that are actually the most important to you, that extra quarter percent conversion rate and the amount of time it's going to take you to go invest into that and do that is probably better to say no to even though it's a shiny object and it's really alluring to want to go do it because you know you can make more money from doing that. But is it going to actually impact your real North Star goals, your why. And realistically here, it probably isn't.

Natalie: Absolutely. I love the philosophies, keep on with it.

Mike: The one that I'm really trying to figure out right now is why I can give advice so easily but not do it myself. That's the problem. It's like, I know what to do but like it's so easy to jump off the rails and not do it myself. That's what I'm really — that's my goals for 2019 and 2020 is to actually listen to me because I know better but it's tough. We all face these same things right man, it's really tough. 

You really want to go out and you hear someone doing some cool thing and the initial thing is like I want to go do that. You hear someone that's a friend of yours that's doing $10 million and you want to be able to go do that. But the reality is that I have to keep in mind what my goals are and what my number is and what my why is. And I don't really — it's easier now because I've gotten older and realize this stuff, but it was definitely a lot tougher before I went through it a few times. So we've all been there. 

Natalie: That's good to know. I'm not alone.

Mike: You're not alone girl, awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming and doing the podcast. If people want to find you and they’re maybe getting ready to get married, tell people how to reach out and go buy some bling. 

Natalie: Absolutely. So our site is Totallydazzled.com. You can find us there. You can also check out our YouTube channel. It's youtube.com/totallydazzled. 

Mike: Yeah. And I encourage everybody even if you're not into in the bling or you're not getting married anytime soon, go check out the channel. I did. I looked at it as a part of getting ready for this podcast. I mean, what you're doing there is dead on. I mean, you're continuing to grow. You just hit 20,000 subscribers, which is not easy. We’re nowhere near close to that for any of our channels. So I know how difficult it is. 

But we just had Eric from Beard Brand on who hit a million subscribers. And he was talking about how the first 20,000 let's say are way more difficult than the next. And he talked about what that's meant to his brand. And so go look at someone that's a little bit earlier in their journey and study Natalie’s channel and look at what she's done to get there. And I'm looking forward to having you back on the podcast next year to talk about how you hit 100,000. 

Natalie: Thank you so much. Honestly, a dream come true to be on the podcast. I've been following you for many, many years. So thank you so much for the opportunity. And thank you to all the listeners out there. My fellow EcomCrew fans, you guys are my people. So thanks so much. 

Mike: Awesome, Natalie. Thank you. 

All right guys, that's going to wrap it up for the 262nd edition of the EcomCrew Podcast, and the first episode in women's month in July. I hope you guys enjoy this episode. If you have any questions or comments or want to just say hi to Natalie, go to EcomCrew.com/262 to get to the show notes and leave a comment, we'd love to hear from you. And again, don't forget EcomCrew.com/premium closes today at midnight. So go check that out, EcomCrew.com/premium. Besides that, guys, thanks so much again for listening and supporting the EcomCrew Podcast. Until the next one, happy selling and we'll talk to you soon. 

Outro: Thanks for listening to the EcomCrew Podcast. Follow us on Facebook at Facebook.com/EcomCrew for weekly live recordings of the EcomCrew Podcast every Monday. And please, do us a favor, and leave an honest review on iTunes, it would really help us out. Again, thanks for listening, and until next week, happy selling.